Curse

MisterB · Feb 21, 2010, 07:56 PM // 19:56

I have not read the thread, but I need someone to hit me with the catapult in Isle of Nameless while I use this.

edit: Guru's calculator shows 15,997.58 (707 damage at -80 AR, and doubled for Frenzy). I'll have to pull the lever on the second account to test that.

Arkantos · Feb 21, 2010, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I dont blame ANet, I blame players like you and Arkantos with fairytalish (i would say childishly naive idiotic but I'd get warning point) view of the world. It's not like this game is 1 month old, it's several years old and that's how long mesmers have been crap in PvE. Then some of us come and ask for buffs, and what does ANet see, a bunch of people saying "oh its ok, we can wait 5 more years and then in gw2 mesmer might be ok.. and if not future update might cover it, like gw3".

Who cares if FUTURE UPDATE buffs mesmers when no one will be left to play neither mesmers nor gw?

Lets make it opposite - lets make mesmers super good and nerf other classes to current mesmer level. Then when you complain about your class we mesmers will tell you - dont worry, future update might cover your class.

ANet is 10x smarter than average customer.

Mesmers aren't crap in PvE, it seems that you're just crap at using them. Yes, mesmers aren't omgsuperamazing in PvE, but the main problem isn't that, it's that the majority of the community are too dumb to realize that mesmers aren't complete shit. Assassins had the exact same problem, everyone thought they were shit when they really weren't. If you haven't noticed, there's a lot of attribute lines/professions that suck/aren't great in PvE, so stop whining because your precious profession wasn't buffed in this update.

drkn · Feb 21, 2010, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

I don't see an easy fix to the solution. I don't play Mesmer in PvE (or PvP). I don't have what it takes to figure out what needs done to make the Mesmer viable in high-end PvE again. It's extremely low on my priority list, until someone comes out with a set of proposed changes to skills that mostly fills the previously mentioned criteria. If and when I can see a solution to the problem, I don't mind pushing for it.

there were loads of suggestions posted in Sardelac. some of them:
* more viable Ineptitude - AoE, better recharge
* AoE empathy
* AoE and/or cut recharge+cost on backfire
* cut recharges on most skills, as casting a skill and wanding for 30s is not only inferior to other classes, but just not fun
* give player mesmers a way to interrupts foes in hard mode - one idea was to give them something similar to maelstrom, an AoE interrupt over time that would deal low damage or, even better, drain energy, and would fail if fast casting is 6 or lower; this way, living players could do what mesmers were actually designed for - just remember not to make the skill cost 25e and have 45s recharge, we've got enough of those
* fix useless elites, just take a look at Panic - it's the quintesence of useless pve skill; again, high costs and long recharges on skills that do nothing useful in pve come up
* introduce synergy on mesmer skills - i know that it requires in-depth thinking and tests, so i wouldn't expect that one to come next week - but some of the ideas were to add 'the next time you interrupt a foe...' (allies in earshot gain x energy, for example), 'the next time you put a hex on a foe...' (that foe's spells are disabled for x seconds, for example), etc
* what you would find to be 'overpowered' or easily abusive by other primairies, simply tie to FC (requires fast casting 7 or higher or fails; damage/energy drain/duration/other effect dependant on FC rank)

there were NUMEROUS suggestions to what exactly change and it's not necessarily 'moar dmg plox'.

another thread changed into mesmers' whining. although i don't like to see it - would prefer to never have the need to post those things - but i think it's a clear SHOUT from the playerbase that something HAS to be changed.

Quote:

It's a problem we're aware of. Just thinking off the bat, adding a line "when unaffected by Cracked Armor" to the end of the -20 armor clause would solve this problem enough, right?

it would be better than nothing, but a permanent -20 armor is still an overkill.
-5 armor and ends prematurely if [xyz] (under effect of dazed, knocked down - there are possibilities)

Quote:

Mesmers aren't crap in PvE, it seems that you're just crap at using them.

again, please post somewhere how we should play our mesmers to be viable in high-end pve. until then, sorry but i don't think you've even tried it.

Carboplatin · Feb 21, 2010, 08:52 PM // 20:52

I would have to say Mesmers are far from sucking in PvE. In fact my my hero combinations usually include a mesmer, rit, and necro. Mesmer does require some skill to use to be good, if you think that mesmers suck, its probably just your skills and not the class.

Arkantos · Feb 21, 2010, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

again, please post somewhere how we should play our mesmers to be viable in high-end pve. until then, sorry but i don't think you've even tried it.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to play a class in high end PvE. Every class is viable in high end PvE, you just have to play with people who are decent and realize it. With my old guild we've run viable dervishes in DoA, viable rangers in DoA, viable mesmers in DoA. Hell, we used to run a mind blast ele in HM DoA and it was viable. Sorry if you're stuck on the pug mentality that if it's not the best, it sucks and no one should use it.

*lemming* · Feb 21, 2010, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

No I haven't because MOST everything is maintainable if you use your energy wisely. I can maintain Weapon of Aggression very easily and constantly. It's all in energy management.

) Also without any inheirent drawbacks within the skill.

) This is also a great skill to use with assassin and warriors I'm finding. Adding Warriors Endurance really keeps 25% IAS up constantly barring no lucky interupt, but, interupt ruins all cases of anything when it comes to drawbacks.

You're spending about 8-10% of your dps time maintaining your Weapon of Aggression. If that's not a drawback, I don't know what is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

You clearly didnt read the new skill description . CA affects paragons like affect any other char but with the new nerf it changes. CA doesnt lower your armor beyond 60 but that debuff DOES , therefore is not a nerf to a nerfed skill , is more like some room to breathe.
Paragons have good armor amount but that doesnt justify the -40 armor when affected by CA and the Debuff . 2 Bleedings dont stack when necromancer uses some blood spells and someone inflicts bleeding again , why 2 -20 armor debuffs should stack ?.

The response to the cracked armor nerfs was almost universally negative from the pve community. This was the alternative that many of you wanted.

Orry · Feb 21, 2010, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Mesmers aren't crap in PvE, it seems that you're just crap at using them. Yes, mesmers aren't omgsuperamazing in PvE, but the main problem isn't that, it's that the majority of the community are too dumb to realize that mesmers aren't complete shit. Assassins had the exact same problem, everyone thought they were shit when they really weren't. If you haven't noticed, there's a lot of attribute lines/professions that suck/aren't great in PvE, so stop whining because your precious profession wasn't buffed in this update.

QFT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to play a class in high end PvE. Every class is viable in high end PvE, you just have to play with people who are decent and realize it. With my old guild we've run viable dervishes in DoA, viable rangers in DoA, viable mesmers in DoA. Hell, we used to run a mind blast ele in HM DoA and it was viable. Sorry if you're stuck on the pug mentality that if it's not the best, it sucks and no one should use it.

Also true, my alliance does events (end-game areas) on most weekends and we accomidate whatever professions people want to bring, it works perfectly fine 9 times out of 10, and the times it doesn't it is usually connection errors.

I use my mesmer in all of them.

drkn · Feb 21, 2010, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

In fact my my hero combinations usually include a mesmer, rit, and necro.

we're not talking about heroes. heroes have godlike interruption and targeting skills.

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It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to play a class in high end PvE. Every class is viable in high end PvE, you just have to play with people who are decent and realize it.

sorry, but as long as you don't enlighten the dark masses how they should play their mesmers in their current state, i don't take your words on it serious.

Quote:

With my old guild we've run viable dervishes in DoA, viable rangers in DoA, viable mesmers in DoA.

with cop? with vor? with a permasin balling up and keeping mobs?
with what?

Voice of Reason · Feb 21, 2010, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

sorry, but as long as you don't enlighten the dark masses how they should play their mesmers in their current state, i don't take your words on it serious.

Find out what you'll be fighting in an area and bring counters to them. Or spam PvE skills if you're feeling lazy.

I still think Mesmers could use a buff, but they're not nearly as bad as some of you are making them seem. And Dervishes and Rangers (mostly Dervishes) are much worse off.

Reformed · Feb 21, 2010, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

with cop? with vor? with a permasin balling up and keeping mobs? with what?

With a solid backline you can steamroll with any kind of physical out front. Mesmers make outstanding cleaners, it's not always about pew pew. It also really depends on how far back in history with the DoA you want to go...Echo/CoP is actually a very old build.

Tenebrae · Feb 21, 2010, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Cracked Armour is a condition. It reduces AL by 20 down to a minimum of 60.
If Soldier's Fury and Aggressive Refrain are changed so they reduce AL by 20 without CA. Crucially, this will not be a condition (even if it was a condition, it will still be distinct from CA and the following will still apply).
Unless a cap exists then it seems logical that the armour reduction will stack.
The sources of armour reduction are different. It would be possible to be under the effects of both at the same time.

Dude, i made it so clear ...... ill explain it to you again.

NOW , that debuff doesnt exist . They are going to make it to make sure paragon is at least -20 armor when uses those skills , thats the only purpose of creating that debuff. Because of that , the 60 min cap should also be applied to that debuff ; because of that , Weaken armor was changed to give the "new" condition , CA . Because the point is ( and was , like CA case ) lowering the armor with a min cap.

I said that they stack , i know some others DO and if this goes on , this will to. . Never said otherwise , dont know why you keep telling me that is logical for them to stack over and over again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Your comparison was flawed because it is not possible to be under the effect of two Bleeding conditions. However it is quite possible to be under the effect of Poison and Disease and suffer 8 health degeneration and it would be quite possible to be under the effects of the reduction from SF/AR and Cracked Armour.

Poison an Dissease are different , have same HP degen but one of them is contagious and once again , i never said that CA and armor debuffs cant happen same time. Read the blood magic comparison , to be FAIR and BALANCED if the point is that blood necro inflicts internal bleeding or whatever to himself then if Paragons now dont get CA , blood necros should have a -3 HP debuff instead of bleeding , am i clear ?. Even degen has its cap , no matter what kind of degen is . P´s problem is NOT the "stackable" issue , its the min armor cap. Hope you understand what me and Cthulu were talking about ....

drkn · Feb 21, 2010, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Find out what you'll be fighting in an area and bring counters to them.

it's not that easy, believe me

Quote:

Or spam PvE skills if you're feeling lazy.

it's not being lazy - it's the limitation; to be useful in a team, one has to rely on pve skills. don't think it's fine.

there was another way to buff mesmers that was proposed a lot times. it sounds overpowered, but with some careful adjustments and tests done by the Test krewe, it should be fine.
split fast casting. leave it as it is in pvp. buff it in pve - add an effect that shortens recharges of your spells and signets. so, for example, at 10 fast casting you'd have 15s reuse of chaos storm instead of 30s. it might affect only mesmer skills for it's full power and 30-50% of the set value of non-mesmer skills (so, if on 10 FC you had 50% shorter recharges, it's 25% for non-mesmer skills - it's just an example and the numbers are used for simplicity). count all enchantments out for the sake of keeping general balance and not bringing new imba solo builds up (so signets and non-enchantment spells).
that one buff, solely, would bring mesmers into high-end, imho, or at least make them useful and enjoyable to play. all with just one split!

Squalus the Ipno · Feb 21, 2010, 09:49 PM // 21:49

"Its not even OP anymore because of the speedbuff and after Obbyflesh/600/SF are gone, I garuntee youll lose atleast 500 players"
You mean 5000 so making some funny calculations gw players reach 50000 maybe. GG ANET always prompt to ruin an uber dead game

cthulhu reborn · Feb 21, 2010, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

There's nothing wrong if one aspect of a profession can be used better by another profession, it only becomes problematic if that's the case for every aspect of a profession.

Well I don't entirely agree with that. Take the example of the Ritualist especially.
When the Rit came out it was shunned from virtually all parties and generally people didn't know what to do with it. At some point people found out they could do some decent healing and because of a lack of monks Rits slowly become more and more accepted as long as they used restoration. For DPS people would still prefer an ele over a channeling rit and well communing never really did make that big an impression.

So the Rits biggest card has always been Restoration...and that's exactly the skill group that Necro's are better at using because of the mana gain from soul reaping.
Bottom line is that the Necro Rit basically all but killed the Rit primary.

I hope that the current changes will do something for channeling but if it will be enough to make the Rit primary viable as a party member, I'm not so sure.

The Josip · Feb 21, 2010, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Mesmers aren't crap in PvE, it seems that you're just crap at using them. Yes, mesmers aren't omgsuperamazing in PvE, but the main problem isn't that, it's that the majority of the community are too dumb to realize that mesmers aren't complete shit.

Aha yea. That's why Arkantos when he wants good hero build he takes Norgu and Gwen and plows through PvE.

No, wait. He makes a 2Rt 1N Arkfenway.

Hypocrit.

Now, go to the drawing board and make 2mesmer PvE team build.

Quote:

It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to play a class in high end PvE. Every class is viable in high end PvE, you just have to play with people who are decent and realize it. With my old guild we've run viable dervishes in DoA, viable rangers in DoA, viable mesmers in DoA.

Just because you can do some area in the game with some profession, doesnt mean that profession isnt crap. Hint: all-mesmer saturday meetings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carboplatin

I would have to say Mesmers are far from sucking in PvE. In fact my my hero combinations usually include a mesmer, rit, and necro.

Build please.

Orry · Feb 21, 2010, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Aha yea. That's why Arkantos when he wants good hero build he takes Norgu and Gwen and plows through PvE.

No, wait. He makes a 2Rt 1N Arkfenway.

Hypocrit.

Now, go to the drawing board and make 2mesmer PvE team build.

Just because you can do some area in the game with some profession, doesnt mean that profession isnt crap. Hint: all-mesmer saturday meetings.

Build please.

OQNEAasj2xIEiBgAWwHYwZDQjA

^Really lolworthy build, but it works for most things, honest, I'm sure there are better builds, but it's funny to watch Norgu's health bar plummet and rise randomly and if that works, plenty of other things work.

shoyon456 · Feb 21, 2010, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to play a class in high end PvE. Every class is viable in high end PvE,

Who cares if every class is viable? If Rangers, Sins, Warriors, and even Ritualists can do the exact same thing as Dervs but better/higher dmg/more AL/unstrippable buffs/etc... then why the hell should a Derv be taken?

It's not about making every class viable, its about making sure every class has a niche in which it outshines all other professions yet is nearly as useful as having another profession in that role.

Sure, every class is viable, but just being viable when nearly every other class would be more useful in that spot is the problem.

FoxBat · Feb 21, 2010, 10:23 PM // 22:23

A cracked, aggressive para is still ~86 armor. I'd like to say the adjustment might allow them to stop nerfing para support but I don't think it makes any real difference.

maxxfury · Feb 21, 2010, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

OQNEAasj2xIEiBgAWwHYwZDQjA

^Really lolworthy build, but it works for most things, honest, I'm sure there are better builds, but it's funny to watch Norgu's health bar plummet and rise randomly and if that works, plenty of other things work.

Thats why people talk about comparative balance.
Crap works in pve and everyone knows it.

But thats not the issue. The issue is that some classes are well behind others in comparison, for amount of viable builds, number of skills that dont blow, or are blatantly just in a higher tier.

Sidenote: heroes have godly reactions, and targeting speed(think death nova spamming) so are naturally good at some things and horrendous at stuff that requires some real thought

So their bars have to be different to that of a human..

The Josip · Feb 21, 2010, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

OQNEAasj2xIEiBgAWwHYwZDQjA

^Really lolworthy build, but it works for most things, honest, I'm sure there are better builds, but it's funny to watch Norgu's health bar plummet and rise randomly and if that works, plenty of other things work.

Crippling Anquish etc, yea I thought it's something like that

Now, dont get me wrong, im all for fun builds, but we are talking about efficiency here and that build of yours is like 5x less useful than necro hero builds from pvxwiki.